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How Venezuela’s socialist dream collapsed into a nightmare

194 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

I don't think it is as much of a factor as you do.   They gave their government way too much power

I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on Venezuela and I’m sure you and I have read most of the same articles on this.  I don’t think we’re disagreeing on very much. 

Anyway.  Venezuela is a nightmare. 

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Man, reading about Venezuela is a somber reminder that absolute socialism could never work. In both absolute socialism and absolute capitalism, an elite class forms and holds the vast majority of the power and wealth. People are inherently selfish, and so when you give them power, they will naturally act according to their own self-interest.

The best solution is a balance of capitalism and socialism, which is pretty much every developed nation in the world. You allow the free market to exist and set the tone for the economy, but the government still offers certain services and places certain regulations on business.

 

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2 hours ago, Taylor said:

Man, reading about Venezuela is a somber reminder that absolute socialism could never work. In both absolute socialism and absolute capitalism, an elite class forms and holds the vast majority of the power and wealth. People are inherently selfish, and so when you give them power, they will naturally act according to their own self-interest.

The best solution is a balance of capitalism and socialism, which is pretty much every developed nation in the world. You allow the free market to exist and set the tone for the economy, but the government still offers certain services and places certain regulations on business.

 

Is there an example of an absolute capitalist society and what became of it?

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The new currency was put into circulation today. Many people in Venezuela stayed home from work due to uncertainty about how things will pan out. Thousands of businesses closed and the country came to a standstill.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45262525

The new currency lops five zeroes off the old "strong bolivar" - meaning a cup of coffee worth 2.5m strong bolivars in the capital Caracas last month now costs 25 sovereign bolivars.

However, people in Caracas told the BBC they were restricted to withdrawing only 10 sovereign bolivars on Tuesday from cash machines.

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38 minutes ago, Jason said:

Is there an example of an absolute capitalist society and what became of it?

Post-industrial revolution 19th century Western Europe/USA was pretty damn close. Unions, monopoly-busters, and extreme right/left wing political ideologies became really popular.

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28 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Post-industrial revolution 19th century Western Europe/USA was pretty damn close. Unions, monopoly-busters, and extreme right/left wing political ideologies became really popular.

That's about as close as we saw one. I think we learned that as long as the monopolies and such are held in check, capitalism is till the best route to go.

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It’s not capitalism specifically.  It’s a free market thats proven to be the most equitable.   Still, a free market must be governed in order to make it equitable for most people.   

And some “socialized” programs aren’t incompatible with a free market.  I personally agree with @Taylor that a blend is what’s best.  In some areas pure profit drive isn’t what’s best for society. 

Edited by UndertheHalo

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14 minutes ago, Jason said:

That's about as close as we saw one. I think we learned that as long as the monopolies and such are held in check, capitalism is till the best route to go.

Well, we also need the government to regulate things like workplace conditions, child labor laws, etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Well, we also need the government to regulate things like workplace conditions, child labor laws, etc. 

I don't think anyone argues that there shouldn't be any regulations but our government tends to overdue it when given the power to do so. Having a nanny state isn't a good idea either.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-california-bill-aims-to-curb-kids-soda-habits/

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9 minutes ago, Jason said:

I don't think anyone argues that there shouldn't be any regulations but our government tends to overdue it when given the power to do so. Having a nanny state isn't a good idea either.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-california-bill-aims-to-curb-kids-soda-habits/

Heh on Twitter we'd all be a bunch of centrist humpers. Yes, "centrist" is the new favorite pejorative de jour. As in if you don't believe Nazis should be summarily shot, burned with acid and then pissed on, you're a no good centrist.

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Is curbing soda (which is terrible for children) really the best example of over regulation ?

Its not that hard to find examples where more regulation would have been good in this country.  It goes both ways.  Things change, regulators need to be flexible enough to adjust. We have a segment of the population that kicks and screams anytime there’s any discussion of any regulation. 

Are there bad regulations. of course.  Are regulations necessary and often good.  Of course. 

Edited by UndertheHalo

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11 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Is curbing soda (which is terrible for children) really the best example of over regulation. 

How about prevailing wage and race quotas on government infrastructure jobs? If you want to know why it cost a zillion dollars to build a freeway on-ramp, there you go.

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35 minutes ago, Jason said:

I don't think anyone argues that there shouldn't be any regulations but our government tends to overdue it when given the power to do so. Having a nanny state isn't a good idea either.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-california-bill-aims-to-curb-kids-soda-habits/

Exactly. Neither the government nor corporations should have too much power.

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12 minutes ago, Lhalo said:

How about prevailing wage and race quotas on government infrastructure jobs? If you want to know why it cost a zillion dollars to build a freeway on-ramp, there you go.

Do you realize why race quotas (and affirmative action) exist? It's not just to be politically correct.

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22 minutes ago, Lhalo said:

How about prevailing wage and race quotas on government infrastructure jobs? If you want to know why it cost a zillion dollars to build a freeway on-ramp, there you go.

We can whatabout anything dude.  I said some are good and some are bad.  The hiring requirements for certain infrastructure projects isn’t something I know anything about so I’m not going to get into the weeds with you on it.  

I didn’t realize that private industry is always maximally efficient.  <rolls eyes>

Is affirmative action a good thing ?  Sometimes.  It’s purpose is obvious.  

Edited by UndertheHalo

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17 hours ago, Jason said:

That's about as close as we saw one. I think we learned that as long as the monopolies and such are held in check, capitalism is till the best route to go.

I think patent laws are generally really bad for the free market too. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Taylor said:

Exactly. Neither the government nor corporations should have too much power.

Agreed but also an impossible reality in a democratic State. 

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31 minutes ago, Adam said:

Agreed but also an impossible reality in a democratic State. 

I think we can prevent absolute power. Too much power, not so much. That is subjective though.

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15 minutes ago, Jason said:

I think we can prevent absolute power. Too much power, not so much. That is subjective though.

Right I'm just saying an actual free market and pure capitalism could only exist in an anarchist society. That may be worse than in a regulated State but in a regulated democratic State capitalism will always devolve into a crony system, a welfare State and ultimately Socialism, which ultimately leads to poverty, famine, death, etc...

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16 minutes ago, Adam said:

Right I'm just saying an actual free market and pure capitalism could only exist in an anarchist society. That may be worse than in a regulated State but in a regulated democratic State capitalism will always devolve into a crony system, a welfare State and ultimately Socialism, which ultimately leads to poverty, famine, death, etc...

I can’t envision any system that doesn’t ultimately lead to poverty, famine, death, etc....

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