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Dochalo

Is it time to add?

158 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, floplag said:

Perhaps true, but  it weakened the ML roster at the time, thats all i know.

I don't think there would be much question that, 12 days out from the deadline, if Eppler could have a do-over, he probably would have kept Hernandez....but we didn't....without a crystal ball, you could have guessed, on July 31, that we could just as easily be 6 games out in the WC race as where we are....

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Just now, DMVol said:

I don't think there would be much question that, 12 days out from the trading deadline, if Eppler could have a do-over, he probably would have kept Hernandez....but we didn't....without a crystal ball, you could have guessed, on July 31, that we could just as easily be 6 games out in the WC race as where we are....

Perhaps, but still missing the point.  That's where he chose to spend his time and effort.   Pretty clear indications what the front office thinks of the club.  

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7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yes he weakened the team, of a sub .500 team. A team that is 8-3 since the trade.  

Two of those three losses are due to bullpen blowing up.  Where would we be if we didn't bw those two games?l

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23 minutes ago, wopphil said:

I'd have zero problem making a trade that involved Thaiss and/or Barria as the centerpiece(s) and included the Angels taking on all of Verlander's salary.

Look at what Verlander has done the last 7 starts. He'd be a huge pickup for this team, and a rotation cog for the next two years.

 

I disagree, but I also wasn't terribly happy with the Simmons trade initially, so what do I know.

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Just now, Glen said:

 

I disagree, but I also wasn't terribly happy with the Simmons trade initially, so what do I know.

You gotta give to get, and while Thaiss and Barria might be two of the Angels' better prospects, I don't think anyone considers them legit top 100 guys. 

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4 minutes ago, floplag said:

Perhaps, but still missing the point.  That's where he chose to spend his time and effort.   Pretty clear indications what the front office thinks of the club.  

Again, you don't know how much effort he put into discussions about "controllable" players....may a lot, maybe not so much....he held on to all of the pen, sans Hernandez, so they certainly didn't bail and have a fire sale....if he did anything wrong, he should have had a fire sale for Norris in mid-July, obviously....

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1 minute ago, DMVol said:

Again, you don't know how much effort he put into discussions about "controllable" players....may a lot, maybe not so much....he held on to all of the pen, sans Hernandez, so they certainly didn't bail and have a fire sale....if he did anything wrong, he should have had a fire sale for Norris in mid-July, obviously....

Nor do you, but why is it only about controllable?  Some of you have such a narrow focus.    If we could get even a rental for salary dump that helps us make the post isnt that worth it?  Isnt that the goal?   

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6 minutes ago, Glen said:

 

I disagree, but I also wasn't terribly happy with the Simmons trade initially, so what do I know.

Same here.... That's why we don't get paid the big bucks.

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1 minute ago, floplag said:

i believe you and Jeff, but in the end, thats what he did, hes sold a reliever for a box of balls.   I dont have any idea what he tried to do, but we know what he did do. 

My guess is that he tried to sell other parts as well.  I bet he also had some discussions about controllable players.  Not big salary additions but guys that would require legit prospects.  He may have even laid a foundation for the off season.  

But you are right.  do.  or do not.  there is no try.  

I don't see us taking on any big money right now so I think it's more Arte than Eppler.  If we push over the tax, then Arte will want to reset it next year.   I really don't have a problem with the deadline moves (or lack thereof) that Eppler made.  

On July 31st, we were 4 games below .500 and 4.5gb of the second WC.  Many players were under performing (still are) and we had a lot less clarity on players returning from injury.  That's not a situation justifying any sort of investment.  Even if it's 'just' monetary.  Hey Arte, I know we are injured and playing like crap, but how about we take on some money and push the team over the CBT threshold to give us a slightly better chance of having one more game to play?  Hey Billy, how about you're fired.  

But now, the team is showing signs of life.  The offensive disappointments are coming around (a bit), guys are coming back from injury, and most importantly, even though we've played well over the last couple weeks, no one else we're competing against has taken off in any meaningful way.  

So why not find a way to improve a bit by eating some other team's money?  

Even though Verlander sort of fit's that mold, he owed 60 mil for his age 35 and 36 yo seasons.  Either you suck that entire amount up or you give up talent to bring it down.  The one thing that bodes well for him is that his velo is really good.  So do you make a 60+ mil commitment to a guy age 35 and 36 when only 9 more of his starts are potentially the only meaningful ones he could make during his entire 2+ year stretch?  Tough call.  Don't see it being justified though.  

The guys I mentioned were a max extra year of commitment after the rest of this one.   Guys that could give a boost but wouldn't cost really anything but a few bucks.  

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Just now, floplag said:

Nor do you, but why is it only about controllable?  Some of you have such a narrow focus.    If we could get even a rental for salary dump that helps us make the post isnt that worth it?  Isnt that the goal?   

I would have considered a salary dump but not one that would have hamstrung us too much next year and beyond....a pure rental, somebody who could really help, just made no sense because we are so thin in the minors....My thinking hasn't changed since July 31 about that---a really expensive rental (in terms of trading young talent) made no sense then or now.....

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13 minutes ago, floplag said:

Perhaps, but still missing the point.  That's where he chose to spend his time and effort.   Pretty clear indications what the front office thinks of the club.  

what else were they supposed to think at the time?  They were 4 games below .500.  Call me crazy but that's not very good and not something I'd be overly inclined to throw money or prospects at.

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14 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Two of those three losses are due to bullpen blowing up.  Where would we be if we didn't bw those two games?l

Since Bud was the closer and he blew those leads almost single handily coupled with Scioscia's approach, I'm guessing exactly where we are.  

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18 minutes ago, floplag said:

A sub 500 team that was still in a WC race even sub 500.  Perhaps not the best signal to send to the team at that point.  It speaks a lot to the character of the players that they went on that run after that message was sent. 

it's speaks a lot to the character (or talent) of the team that they were below .500 before that.  You are viewing the team from it's current situation as if that's how we should have viewed it two weeks ago.   There was no indication at the time they could go on even a small run like this, and frankly, I'm not overly confident they'll continue to play over .500 the rest of the way.  But at least now it's worth considering whereas before, there was a very low chance.  

You have to manage risk Flop.  Eppler is there to handicap the situation.  It's his job to try to think about these situations without the emotion of a fan(atic).  

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3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

My guess is that he tried to sell other parts as well.  I bet he also had some discussions about controllable players.  Not big salary additions but guys that would require legit prospects.  He may have even laid a foundation for the off season.  

But you are right.  do.  or do not.  there is no try.  

I don't see us taking on any big money right now so I think it's more Arte than Eppler.  If we push over the tax, then Arte will want to reset it next year.   I really don't have a problem with the deadline moves (or lack thereof) that Eppler made.  

On July 31st, we were 4 games below .500 and 4.5gb of the second WC.  Many players were under performing (still are) and we had a lot less clarity on players returning from injury.  That's not a situation justifying any sort of investment.  Even if it's 'just' monetary.  Hey Arte, I know we are injured and playing like crap, but how about we take on some money and push the team over the CBT threshold to give us a slightly better chance of having one more game to play?  Hey Billy, how about you're fired.  

But now, the team is showing signs of life.  The offensive disappointments are coming around (a bit), guys are coming back from injury, and most importantly, even though we've played well over the last couple weeks, no one else we're competing against has taken off in any meaningful way.  

So why not find a way to improve a bit by eating some other team's money?  

Even though Verlander sort of fit's that mold, he owed 60 mil for his age 35 and 36 yo seasons.  Either you suck that entire amount up or you give up talent to bring it down.  The one thing that bodes well for him is that his velo is really good.  So do you make a 60+ mil commitment to a guy age 35 and 36 when only 9 more of his starts are potentially the only meaningful ones he could make during his entire 2+ year stretch?  Tough call.  Don't see it being justified though.  

The guys I mentioned were a max extra year of commitment after the rest of this one.   Guys that could give a boost but wouldn't cost really anything but a few bucks.  

The highlighted above is what i dont get.  Isnt making the post season in some form the goal?  I mean isnt that why we play the season?   To have a chance at a championship?  We were never going to win the division, Hou started too hot, so that one game has always been our only shot at making anything.  

We as fans should know more than most that anything can happen but you have to get there first.  

How much do they make per ho,me game?  per playoff game?   I dont know the detailed answer but i recall it being enough to offset a large part of taking on 5-10 mil for the rest of he year and probably make it a break even.   Per this article (the quickest one i could fine) its certainly worth it for even one game.  
http://thefieldsofgreen.com/2014/10/02/how-much-value-does-a-postseason-appearance-hold-for-mlb-franchises/

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5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Since Bud was the closer and he blew those leads almost single handily coupled with Scioscia's approach, I'm guessing exactly where we are.  

Hell, Hernandez pitched in the Toronto grand slam game Norris lost, can't blame the loss of Hernandez on that one....Pounders was terrible in that game, Norris had help....

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10 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

what else were they supposed to think at the time?  They were 4 games below .500.  Call me crazy but that's not very good and not something I'd be overly inclined to throw money or prospects at.

If thats the case why not sell off more?  Could argue it either way but this team has always had the ability to make up a few games in my mind  so filling in the blanks changes this team completely.  None of the WC teams are that great, none of them.  
But my frustrations go back further than just this seasons trade deadline, its the last couple years of dumpster diving, this just made it more irritating to see that we were no further along and that they had obviously given up.  

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2 minutes ago, floplag said:

If thats the case why not sell off more?  Could argue it either way but this team has always had the ability to make up a few games in my mind  so filling in the blanks changes this team completely.  None of the WC teams are that great, none of them.  
But my frustrations go back further than just this seasons trade deadline, its the last couple years of dumpster diving, this just made it more irritating to see that we were no further along and that they had obviously given up.  

And most of the big name free agents we all wanted, including or especially me, have sucked, so that would further hurt this term long term.  So you would have been further pissed off.  

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Just now, floplag said:

The highlighted above is what i dont get.  Isnt making the post season in some form the goal?  I mean isnt that why we play the season?   To have a chance at a championship?  We were never going to win the division, Hou started too hot, so that one game has always been our only shot at making anything.  

We as fans should know more than most that anything can happen but you have to get there first.  

How much do they make per ho,me game?  per playoff game?   I dont know the detailed answer but i recall it being enough to offset a large part of taking on 5-10 mil for the rest of he year and probably make it a break even.   Per this article (the quickest one i could fine) its certainly worth it for even one game.  
http://thefieldsofgreen.com/2014/10/02/how-much-value-does-a-postseason-appearance-hold-for-mlb-franchises/

dude.  at the time they were  4 games below .500 and 4.5gb of the WC with a bunch of teams ahead of us.  Adding 10 mil in payroll to that is an almost guaranteed way to flush money down the toilet.  

you have to remember that we are only 1 game above .500.  The only reason we are in it is because we went on a run to get there AND (a very important AND) we are looking at an unprecedented situation where the 2nd WC holder is only two games over .500.  Something that's never happened.  The fewest wins for the 2nd WC team is 87.  We're still on pace for 81-82 wins.  We have a negative run differential.  We have a hugely negative base runs differential (more accurate than run diff).  Those thing are just stats, but it means we have more wins that we should relative to the numbers we've put up.  It also means that our current situation is going to be tough to sustain.  

take a step back from 'having a chance' for a second.  Here's another way to look at it.  Take the Rangers.  They are 3 gb of the WC and 4 games below .500 right now.  We are not emotionally attached to that team.  Is is realistic to think they could go on a run and win the WC?  No.  Is there a chance?  sure.  Would you add to that team to improve that chance?  

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3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

dude.  at the time they were  4 games below .500 and 4.5gb of the WC with a bunch of teams ahead of us.  Adding 10 mil in payroll to that is an almost guaranteed way to flush money down the toilet.  

you have to remember that we are only 1 game above .500.  The only reason we are in it is because we went on a run to get there AND (a very important AND) we are looking at an unprecedented situation where the 2nd WC holder is only two games over .500.  Something that's never happened.  The fewest wins for the 2nd WC team is 87.  We're still on pace for 81-82 wins.  We have a negative run differential.  We have a hugely negative base runs differential (more accurate than run diff).  Those thing are just stats, but it means we have more wins that we should relative to the numbers we've put up.  It also means that our current situation is going to be tough to sustain.  

take a step back from 'having a chance' for a second.  Here's another way to look at it.  Take the Rangers.  They are 3 gb of the WC and 4 games below .500 right now.  We are not emotionally attached to that team.  Is is realistic to think they could go on a run and win the WC?  No.  Is there a chance?  sure.  Would you add to that team to improve that chance?  

Again then why not dump more?  why only one trivial move?  
Its not emotional, you list a ton of reasons why we are in it that are completely relevant.  I listed a lot of the differential stuff in another post BEFORE the deadline as reason we should be aggressive.  
you can say were only in because thus and so then say were not actually in it.    Thus and so matter.  I always felt we were in it, thats the difference.  

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5 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

.....Here's another way to look at it.  Take the Rangers.  They are 3 gb of the WC and 4 games below .500 right now.  We are not emotionally attached to that team.  Is is realistic to think they could go on a run and win the WC?  No.  Is there a chance?  sure.  Would you add to that team to improve that chance?  

They not only didn't add, they traded their best pitcher....

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I'd get Kinsler and bat him leadoff. Yeah, he's not having a good year but he's got a proven track record and I think he would get the job done. Imagine having Cowart at 3B, Simmons at SS, Kinsler at 2B...no ball would make it through that infield

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No reason not to trade prospects ... I believe Eppler will pull the trigger if the right deal comes about. 

That doesn't mean trade away your best prospects. 

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7 minutes ago, floplag said:

If thats the case why not sell off more?  Could argue it either way but this team has always had the ability to make up a few games in my mind  so filling in the blanks changes this team completely.  None of the WC teams are that great, none of them.  
But my frustrations go back further than just this seasons trade deadline, its the last couple years of dumpster diving, this just made it more irritating to see that we were no further along and that they had obviously given up.  

I can't disagree that there were missteps putting us in the position we currently sit.  The one that hurts is our post 2014 off season.  Coming off 98 wins and the hamilton debacle.  Ending up with Johnny Giavotella at 2b, Joyce in LF and a horrendous bull pen.  And with all that, ending up 1 game back of the WC in 2015 with 85 wins.  That, to me, was our biggest missed opportunity.  Last year, no amount of FA luck could have over come 74 wins and the injuries to our pitching staff.  

This year we are showing signs of life again.  The farm is improving and payroll is opening up.  If we can do a little something now then great.  If not, we are actually in a a great position to take another step forward.  A position created by Eppler and his patience.  One that substantially increases the odds of making good of Trout's remaining time but also, and more importantly luring him to stay an Angel his entire career.  

None of that opportunity exists if we signed Pablo Sandoval or Jordan Zimmermann, or Jeff Samardzija, or Wei-Yin Chen or Ian Kennedy or Alex Gordon, or Pablo Sandoval, or David Price, or Jason Heyward, or Russel Martin or James Shields, or Johnny Cueto, or Mike Leake or Ian Desmond or Mark Trumbo.  Sure there are couple FA we could have signed of the entire lot that have done decently well or even really well.  Daniel Murphy.  Yoenis Cespedes.  Justing Upton.  But again, the risk was huge.  

I am not a huge fan of being .500 right now.  We could have been better with near perfect moves.  But I certainly like the idea of what we could be for 2018, 2019 and 2020 vs. what those years could have looked like had those move not been perfect.  

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Eppler has done a very good job being patient and allowing albatross contracts (Wilson, Hamilton, Weaver - at the end of his time) expire and not blowing that money on other underperforming players. He's going to get an opportunity this offseason to show what he's got in free agency

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