Torridd

Hitting or Pitching

32 posts in this topic

It seems like the board is divided in what the Angels need most. I know that "good pitching beats good hitting" but I've always thought that good hitting beats mediocre pitching and most pitchers are mediocre. I would really like to get at least one big bat to help Simmons, Trout, Ohtani. I know we have a bullpen problem, but I think scoring a couple more runs per game will make the team better than even getting a shutdown ace. Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TroutField said:

Anybody saying hitting after watching this last season is a moron.

IMHO, we need both.  So, does that make me half a moron and half a genius?   Do they cancel out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TroutField said:

If we have to choose between the two ...Anybody saying hitting after watching this last season is a moron.

Yea, except in the slightest of margins pitching outperformed hitting statistically.  Hitting had an OPS+ of 100 and pitching had an ERA+ of 101.  So moron is probably a little strong of a word considering it is a toss up.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yea, except in the slightest of margins pitching outperformed hitting statistically.  Hitting had an OPS+ of 100 and pitching had an ERA+ of 101.  So moron is probably a little strong of a word considering it is a toss up.  

Considering that every single starting pitcher hit the DL at some point and the bullpen pretty much singlehandeley kept us from competing for a wild card, I would say that yeah pitching should be the priority. 

 

When you have Simmons, Trout, Ohtani, and Upton you don’t need to go crazy to add offense, IMO. Supplemental pieces with good OBP need to be added. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the 2018 team stats:

Boston 1st in runs scored, Dodgers 5th, Houston 6th and Milwaukee 12th

Houston lowest team ERA, Dodgers 2nd, Milwaukee 5th and Boston 8th 

Milwaukee only had 1 qualified SP this year but they have some real good arms in the pen as all 4 ranked top 9 in MLB in reliever ERA.  So of the 4 teams left they seem to have gotten it done on both sides.  The Angels scored 33 runs less than Milwaukee this year while giving up 63 more and they ranked middle of the pack in MLB in both regards.  Statistics aren't the end all and be all but the Angels look like they could be a few moves, improvements or fewer DL trips away from improving.  That said obviously there's more to it than just numbers - doing the little things, winning close games, closing games out, etc.  Personally I'd like the Angels to have a legit #1 who is the guy you know is pitching game 1 of the playoffs but that isn't easy to come by and it's never a given.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TroutField said:

Considering that every single starting pitcher hit the DL at some point and the bullpen pretty much singlehandeley kept us from competing for a wild card, I would say that yeah pitching should be the priority. 

 

When you have Simmons, Trout, Ohtani, and Upton you don’t need to go crazy to add offense, IMO. Supplemental pieces with good OBP need to be added. 

Ok fair point.  Name a single offensive player that was average to above average that didn’t see DL time last year.  I will give you the list off the top of my head of offensive players that were on the DL at some point last year:

Albert, Kinsler, Fletcher, Simmons, Cozart, Upton, Trout and Kole.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have more faith in the internal hitting prospects producing at least league-average offense (which would be an upgrade) than I do in the rotation having 5 guys make 25+ GS each. 

If I had to pick one, it’d be pitching. 

I’m a firm believer that there’s a strong correlation between the fewer the SPs used, the better the team, even if those few SPs are just average.

We used 9 guys last year just to make 32 starts (122 innings) with a 6.88 ERA. And that was just for one starter’s turn in the rotation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yea, except in the slightest of margins pitching outperformed hitting statistically.  Hitting had an OPS+ of 100 and pitching had an ERA+ of 101.  So moron is probably a little strong of a word considering it is a toss up.  

The hitting stat, as well as pitching, is without context. Looking at the Angels hitting this season they only had four players with an OPS+ over 100. Simmons 109, Upton 122, Ohtani 152, Trout 199. That is pretty much the entire offense packed into four players. An egregious amount is Trout by himself that was nuetralized by walks.

The pitching side has 6 starters with a ERA+ of 100 or more. The bullpen had 11 pitchers top 100 ERA+. As fractured as the two were the overal pitching performance was spread amoungst more stable players rather than a Mike Trout of pitching. 

Yes both need attention. Offensively there are fewer good hitters than really poor hitters but some of that may rebound naturally with the Marte/Young/Valbuena group leaving and internal solutions rising. That still leaves some holes like 1st base and catcher that could be upgraded. 

Pitching is another story. Attrition from blown UCLs to Richards and Ohtani leave a big gap. Unlike the offensive side a starter is a team by themselves for each game they pitch. At minimum the Angels need one Starter to fill out the five man rotation. That is not even a question at this point. 

Yes both need to be addressed and if either is neglected the Angels gain no traction moving forward. It's like car problems and a limited budget. You have a dead alternator and a couple flat tires. You need to fix them all to get on the road. Ignore the alternator and your replacing batteries. Ignore the tires and your driving on the rims. You've got to, at the minimum, get a new alternator and one tire then put the donut on the other other bad wheel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, TroutField said:

If we have to choose between the two ...Anybody saying hitting after watching this last season is a moron.

I wrote out this long thing, and scrapped it, my views aren't popular here so i figured why bother going down that road again.  I will say that you really need to qualify it a little further between starting pitching and relievers.  
The reality though is that it probably doesn't matter as Eppler isn't likely to change his philosophy on getting relievers off the bargain bin.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The hitting stat, as well as pitching, is without context. Looking at the Angels hitting this season they only had four players with an OPS+ over 100. Simmons 109, Upton 122, Ohtani 152, Trout 199. That is pretty much the entire offense packed into four players. An egregious amount is Trout by himself that was nuetralized by walks.

The pitching side has 6 starters with a ERA+ of 100 or more. The bullpen had 11 pitchers top 100 ERA+. As fractured as the two were the overal pitching performance was spread amoungst more stable players rather than a Mike Trout of pitching. 

Yes both need attention. Offensively there are fewer good hitters than really poor hitters but some of that may rebound naturally with the Marte/Young/Valbuena group leaving and internal solutions rising. That still leaves some holes like 1st base and catcher that could be upgraded. 

Pitching is another story. Attrition from blown UCLs to Richards and Ohtani leave a big gap. Unlike the offensive side a starter is a team by themselves for each game they pitch. At minimum the Angels need one Starter to fill out the five man rotation. That is not even a question at this point. 

Yes both need to be addressed and if either is neglected the Angels gain no traction moving forward. It's like car problems and a limited budget. You have a dead alternator and a couple flat tires. You need to fix them all to get on the road. Ignore the alternator and your replacing batteries. Ignore the tires and your driving on the rims. You've got to, at the minimum, get a new alternator and one tire then put the donut on the other other bad wheel. 

Great post Eric.  Yea, to “fix” one and ignore the other won’t get it done.  I have no idea if Fletcher or Ward will put up league average numbers, if they do then we are looking pretty good as an offense with very minor upgrades with the bench and someone that can be a much better version of Valbuena.    The more I think about it the more I want to get a guy that can lead off.  I am assuming the cost on Cesar Hernandez from Philly is down, but with his decrease in performance this past year, is that a sign of how he will be going forward, or was it just a down year?  Regardless his .356 OBP would be a welcome addition to a line up that has Trout, Ohtani, Upton and Simmons in it.  With the pitching if we do get that one starter that can be a #2 type of starter, and with health we are looking better as long as we get another solid pen arm.  I am not saying this will make us a 95 win team but it will close the gap and not break the bank, nor should it cost us the farm.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest addition on the hitting and pitching side will be the loss of bad players from the lineup and staff. The Angels have some good hitters, but they had some really bad ones too.

It's clear both Calhoun and Pujols are not everyday players and need more of a platoon. Calhoun hit equally well against both sides, but he is just more prone to extended slumps. .208 Average for the year, but he also hit .322 for a month. Limiting Pujols' AB against lefties will help too. He's significantly better against righties at this point in his career. He also hit better lower in the lineup. Valbuena, Cowart, Hermosillio, Marte, and others were objectively terrible.

They need to improve at C because Angels catchers didn't hit well as a group. And they should grab a guy who can hit well in the OF to give Calhoun a break, and maybe that guy also can play 1st and share time with Pujols. But that guy shouldn't block Jo Adell either, who I hope can be Juan Soto like next year.

Finally, I'd expect improvements from Upton, Ward, Fletcher, and Cozart as you are tied into the veterans, and the youngsters should hit better in their second taste of the big leagues. Ward moved through three levels and was learning a new position. Ward's 2018 in the minors was dominate, having a .350 ish average and a .970-.980 OPS in both AA and AAA. Fletcher never really hit well in the minors, until last year either. But he kileld in in SLC. These guys deserve the chance to play regularly in the majors. I think both can do what Simmons gives you with the bat next season, and hopefully move into the .820-850 OPS category.

Cozart and Upton both had huge years in 2017, hope they can be back there in 2019. I hope Upton can give us a .900 OPS and Cozart probably won't reach that, but maybe he too gets to the .820-.850 range?

 

If they graba few good pieces offensively, the team could jump from 721 runs to 821 runs, and that is a playoff team.

 

The pitching gave up 722 runs, but they also gave up like 60 runs in 6 games the second to last week of the season. This staff isn't going to be an Astros style staff, but hopefully with the return of Shoemaker and signing a FA guy who effectively replaces what Ohtani and Richards gave you last year, they can be closer to the 650 run allowed mark. Plus Meyer is back and Buttrey is likely the closer with Parker/Robles/Alvarez as the set up guys, I'm ok with that too. One more guy here would be great, but you never know what you're buying in the relief market.

 

That would be a division contending team.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Blarg said:

The hitting stat, as well as pitching, is without context. Looking at the Angels hitting this season they only had four players with an OPS+ over 100. Simmons 109, Upton 122, Ohtani 152, Trout 199. That is pretty much the entire offense packed into four players. An egregious amount is Trout by himself that was nuetralized by walks.

199 is just freaking ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be even moreso if there were more better than league average players on the team to make just walking Trout less appealing. This season walking Trout to get to streaky Upton was not a hard decision. Walking Trout to get to Ohtani wasn't cut a dried. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hitting......

But, It depends on the quality of player you're looking at.  This team needs hitting more than it needs pitching depth, but if it's a top of the rotation type of starter, then I'd say pitching. 

Offensively, I have no confidence in our catchers, first baseman, second baseman, third baseman and right fielder, which is why I say hitting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • AngelsWin.com Ad-free Membership Options