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Dochalo

If you don't think that starting pitching is the problem.....

108 posts in this topic

then you're wrong.  

second worst WAR so far of -0.2.  5th worst era, FIP and xFIP.  4th worst k/9.  6th worst hr/9.  2nd highest LD rate.  

as bad as you might think the offense is, they're 20th in baseball by WAR and have the lowest BABIP by 20 points.  (meaning they're experiencing some horrendous luck).  

the offense is going to be fine.  

the starting pitching?  good luck.  

 

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9 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

I agree it's the main problem, but the lack of depth offensively has and will continue to cost us. They are propped up by Trout's greatness but most of the pieces around him are really really bad.

no one has depth to lose two of their top three hitters.  

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On a related note, I thought Barria looked great today.  One could argue our defense (LaStella botch and Kole's volley) and relief pitching (Gallo's bomb off Peters) causes all his earned runs today.  

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38 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

no one has depth to lose two of their top three hitters.  

Take out Bregman and Correa from Houston. Still got Springer, Altuve, Gurriel, Brantley, Reddick. Not bad

The Angels have zero left after Trout offensively. I love Simmons but he’s not someone you really expect more than a .750 OPS from

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What's wrong with this team is nothing but the negativity. The starting pitchers are just about to take off. Cahil and Harvey are aces of this staff. Eppler should be commended for putting together a staff that's this good. Division champs here we come. 

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1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

then you're wrong.  

second worst WAR so far of -0.2.  5th worst era, FIP and xFIP.  4th worst k/9.  6th worst hr/9.  2nd highest LD rate.  

as bad as you might think the offense is, they're 20th in baseball by WAR and have the lowest BABIP by 20 points.  (meaning they're experiencing some horrendous luck).  

the offense is going to be fine.  

the starting pitching?  good luck.  

 

What do you suggest Eppler should do?

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32 minutes ago, Dreams said:

On a related note, I thought Barria looked great today.  One could argue our defense (LaStella botch and Kole's volley) and relief pitching (Gallo's bomb off Peters) causes all his earned runs today.  

Truth. 

Barria was victimized by a couple of unfortunate plays. Take those away and he notches a QS and we're in the game.

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But yeah, the starting pitching is pretty rough right now. Looking forward to the second half honestly. 

Really hoping to see Heaney back, plus Canning, Suarez and possibly Sandoval get some major league experience down the stretch if we're out of it.

Not to mention some of our bats in AAA.

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15 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

What do you suggest Eppler should do?

not a thing right now.  

other than hope the guys he chose get healthy and perform better.  

 

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Starting pitching has perpetually been a problem for a few years, but I'm thinking it's going to get better in the future. 

Eppler clearly isn't stupid, he understands what is going on. If he has not found something that works, he will trade for it or sign it in free agency, if it's available.  Recent extensions have weakened free agency. 

But next year, we will have Ohtani and that's an ace anyway you look at it. Then you add in Canning that might end up playing toward the front of a rotation, if not, dynamic at the back of the rotation. Then you have Suarez, who can play up as a left handed, better version of Barria and be a mid rotation starter, or he can play out of the bullpen. Either way, he's a major leaguer. But the wild card here is Pat Sandoval in my opinion. I'd compare him to Lucchesi, with some obvious differences. But that can play up in the middle or back, or not at all. 

Then you have to look away long term possibilities. Chris Rodriguez had shown some promise early on. He could jump up and be ready next year. 

If things break right, later on next year you could have Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval and Rodriguez all pitching in the middle or front of a rotation. That would require some unforeseen luck, but after seeing the injuries the Angels endured, I think pretty much anything is possible. 

But a more likely scenario is that Ohtani and Canning give the rotation the upside it needs, they sign a free agent like Trevor Bauer, and with Skaggs and Heaney rounding out the rotation, in order to prevent injuries, they will shift to a 6 man rotation to get Barria in. Beyond that, because of the injury history, we will see guys like Pena and Suarez in the bullpen and Sandoval and Rodriguez in AA/AAA.

I still think hitting presents the greatest long term issue facing this team. Until Albert retires, he's in the lineup, which means you have to work around a black hole in a spot that should be your most productive. Second base and third base are an obvious problem, and while we have options that could fix it, nothing looks set long term. 

This team needs Rengifo to work out as the starting 2B and leadoff hitter, otherwise no one will consistently get on base in front of Trout. They also need Adell or Marsh to work out in RF because that is the long term future of this offense. They also need a 3B and Ward/Rojas aren't earning glowing remarks from most scouts. They'll also need to find a decent part time 1B when Albert is at DH, so it would be a huge boost if Waldh or Thaisd work out.

A lot had to go right for that offense to keep pace with elite units. 

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Posted (edited)

You guys just keep going back to this.  Ya, the starters aren’t great.  Fine.  I don’t get how you look at an offense that will continue to prominently feature a bunch of shitty players and say.  “Ya it’ll be fine”. It hasn’t been fine for the last 4 years.  It puts undue stress on all the pitchers.  If you can score a some runs you can deal with mediocre pitching.  You can reference all the advanced stats you want about the pitching.  But the fact is, that most nights, the pitching doesn’t run the angels out of games.  You should expect to need more then 3 runs a night to win games in the AL.  The Angels just don’t that often enough.  And that’s because we’re starting half a line of guys that barely belong in the major leagues.  This isn’t that complicated. 

Yes, the pitchers have been unhealthy and are an issue.  Why don’t the Angels focus on not requiring multiples of elite pitchers to bail out their trash line up.  I went game by game last year and looked at what this line up produced.  They may have  cumulatively managed to be 10th or whatever in run production.  (As if that’s some great achievement) but that is tied to the few very good hitters they have.  They produce way to many  4 or 5 hit nights to give themselves a chance.  It is what it is.  That’s a disaster.   It doesn’t matter how good your pitching is when it’s like that.  They’ve played what 17 games this season.  They’ve already been held to 5 or fewer hits in 8 games.  Almost half ! It doesn’t work. We’re just going to keep seeing this shit until they start running out decent line ups.  It will improve with Ohtani and Upton.  But they have to have some plan to get these absolute fu*cking zeros out of the line up.  Calhoun, Cozart, Pujols, Bourjous all these guys have to go.  

Edited by UndertheHalo

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34 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

You guys just keep going back to this.  Ya, the starters aren’t great.  Fine.  I don’t get how you look at an offense that will continue to prominently feature a bunch of shitty players and say.  “Ya it’ll be fine”. It hasn’t been fine for the last 4 years.  It puts undue stress on all the pitchers.  If you can score a some runs you can deal with mediocre pitching.  You can reference all the advanced stats you want about the pitching.  But the fact is, that most nights, the pitching doesn’t run the angels out of games.  You should expect to need more then 3 runs a night to win games in the AL.  The Angels just don’t that often enough.  And that’s because we’re starting half a line of guys that barely belong in the major leagues.  This isn’t that complicated. 

Yes, the pitchers have been unhealthy and are an issue.  Why don’t the Angels focus on not requiring multiples of elite pitchers to bail out their trash line up.  I went game by game last year and looked at what this line up produced.  They may have  cumulatively managed to be 10th or whatever in run production.  (As if that’s some great achievement) but that is tied to the few very good hitters they have.  They produce way to many  4 or 5 hit nights to give themselves a chance.  It is what it is.  That’s a disaster.   It doesn’t matter how good your pitching is when it’s like that.  They’ve played what 17 games this season.  They’ve already been held to 5 or fewer hits in 8 games.  Almost half ! It doesn’t work. We’re just going to keep seeing this shit until they start running out decent line ups.  It will improve with Ohtani and Upton.  But they have to have some plan to get these absolute fu*cking zeros out of the line up.  Calhoun, Cozart, Pujols, Bourjous all these guys have to go.  

Can probably add Lucroy to that too. 

The Angels once again failed to address the gaping hole at catcher

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26 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

You guys just keep going back to this.  Ya, the starters aren’t great.  Fine.  I don’t get how you look at an offense that will continue to prominently feature a bunch of shitty players and say.  “Ya it’ll be fine”. It hasn’t been fine for the last 4 years.  It puts undue stress on all the pitchers.  If you can score a some runs you can deal with mediocre pitching.  You can reference all the advanced stats you want about the pitching.  But the fact is, that most nights, the pitching doesn’t run the angels out of games.  You should expect to need more then 3 runs a night to win games in the AL.  The Angels just don’t that often enough.  And that’s because we’re starting half a line of guys that barely belong in the major leagues.  This isn’t that complicated. 

Yes, the pitchers have been unhealthy and are an issue.  Why don’t the Angels focus on not requiring multiples of elite pitchers to bail out their trash line up.  I went game by game last year and looked at what this line up produced.  They may have  cumulatively managed to be 10th or whatever in run production.  (As if that’s some great achievement) but that is tied to the few very good hitters they have.  They produce way to many  4 or 5 hit nights to give themselves a chance.  It is what it is.  That’s a disaster.   It doesn’t matter how good your pitching is when it’s like that.  They’ve played what 17 games this season.  They’ve already been held to 5 or fewer hits in 8 games.  Almost half ! It doesn’t work. We’re just going to keep seeing this shit until they start running out decent line ups.  It will improve with Ohtani and Upton.  But they have to have some plan to get these absolute fu*cking zeros out of the line up.  Calhoun, Cozart, Pujols, Bourjous all these guys have to go.  

bad offense puts stress on the pitchers.  bad pitchers put stress on the offense.  everything you've said could be turned around on to the starting pitching.  

how can you say a top 10 offense (last year of course) is more to blame than a bottom 12 pitching staff?  but it's not about last year.  

and are we really considering BABIP an advanced stat these days?  

I agree that there are some guys to displace from the lineup.  I would like to see Cozart and Bourjos out.  Maybe we've caught some good fortune with Goodwin.  A better offense is a potential reality though with Ohtani over Albert, Upton over Bourjos, maybe Goodwin over Calhoun, Fletcher to the IF over Cozart. 

What's gonna make the starters better?  Heaney being in there will help but otherwise we're relying on improved performance.  That's as likely or probably less so than improved performance from the offense that's been subject to bad luck.  

The bottom line is that the offense has a much better chance to improve and be playoff worthy while the starting pitching is more about hoping and praying.  

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So now that Dochalo says starting pitching is a problem, we can all finally agree that starting pitching is a problem.

Doesn't really matter though, Angels aren't expected to contend until 2021.

 

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7 minutes ago, Jay said:

So now that Dochalo says starting pitching is a problem, we can all finally agree that starting pitching is a problem.

Doesn't really matter though, Angels aren't expected to contend until 2021.

 

Agree. Hold your nose and enjoy watching Trout while the Halos tread water for a year or two. 

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I mean, yeah, Eppler's never really addressed the pitching staff since he got here. We're just continuing to rely on the same mediocre injury-prone starters year after year so it's not terribly surprising that things are going south yet again. The shine wore off of Cahill and Harvey pretty quickly. 

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