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yk9001

Keep bunting at the shift

50 posts in this topic

The game isn't over the line. If the defense wants to play that game then bunting it down third is the easy choice for the offense. 

The other night the Angels let the runner on third walk all the way to the half way point to home plate before the pitch because of the shift. That's just stupid baseball. 

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I hope you are sitting down, Stradling but I 100% disagree.

The shift, as it is currently employed, sucks.  But if hitting teams get JUST A LITTLE flexible on how they attack it, it could produce some decent results.

 

Rich Hill losing his absolute sh*t, because he felt he did everything right, and still gave up a hit, is a better result than the 'three possible outcomes'.

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21 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It’s less than enjoyable baseball, but it isn’t stupid baseball.  If it was they wouldn’t do it.  I fucking hate the shift and while I consider myself somewhat of a traditionalist, I would like to see the shift banned.  

I also feel exactly the same way.  

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12 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I hope you are sitting down, Stradling but I 100% disagree.

The shift, as it is currently employed, sucks.  But if hitting teams get JUST A LITTLE flexible on how they attack it, it could produce some decent results.

 

Rich Hill losing his absolute sh*t, because he felt he did everything right, and still gave up a hit, is a better result than the 'three possible outcomes'.

I am always super surprised when you and I aren’t lock step on an opinion.  I don’t disagree, but the only real flexibility would be to bunt.  I also don’t think that bunting will change the shift, because they are already saying, by shifting, we don’t care if you get a single.  If you want to see the shift diminished then the guy batting the other night, where the guy on third could come most of the way home on the pitch, if that batter bunted, you might see the shift change. But it would only change when you have a left handed batter batting, with a runner on third base.  

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1 minute ago, eaterfan said:

Does anyone actually like baseball? A quarter of the threads on this board are just complaints about baseball.

Love baseball, don’t love the evolution of baseball.  I don’t care for the 3 outcome, I don’t care for the shift, I don’t care for 3.5 hour games.  

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2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I also don’t think that bunting will change the shift, because they are already saying, by shifting, we don’t care if you get a single.

Are they saying, "we don't care" or are they saying, "we don' think you can beat this"

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1 minute ago, Jay said:

Are they saying, "we don't care" or are they saying, "we don' think you can beat this"

Yea, that is a good question.  What they are saying is math says you won’t.  

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Also on the shift play where the dude is half way home the other night, what does the batter do?  He hits a ground ball to the right side scoring two runs.  

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5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I am always super surprised when you and I aren’t lock step on an opinion.  I don’t disagree, but the only real flexibility would be to bunt.  I also don’t think that bunting will change the shift, because they are already saying, by shifting, we don’t care if you get a single.  If you want to see the shift diminished then the guy batting the other night, where the guy on third could come most of the way home on the pitch, if that batter bunted, you might see the shift change. But it would only change when you have a left handed batter batting, with a runner on third base.  

I don't think that's what they are saying.  

To me it's more 'we don't care if you only try for a single'.  

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But if you are a pull hitter, and they shift against you, you probably don’t have the ability to drive the ball into the opposite field gap often enough or else we wouldn’t be shifting against you.  

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Just now, yk9001 said:

Or, they are saying, "we think you are too stubborn to try this.  Go ahead and hit it to one of the three infielders on the right side." 

It isn’t stubborn, it is approach, which isn’t really solved in a single at bat especially when they pitch to the shift as well.  Jeff Fletcher shared with us that Kole, who they shift like crazy against, hits .350 with power when he pulls the ball, even with the shift.  So when he does go away from the shift he is a worse hitter.

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For me its simple, you gotta do something other than play right into what they are trying to force you to do, within your abilities.  Even if it doesnt work, at least you make them think about it and take a few more step back the other way.  
You cant ban it, that time has passed, anymore than you can ban the opener or any of the myriad of other things that a traditionalist would puke at that are simply part of the modern game. 
But you also cant be a mule about it and pretend there are no options and just accept your fate.  

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Just now, wopphil said:

Has the shift affected offensive output that much? What are average runs scored per game this year versus 5, 10 years ago?

Im guessing it has, or it wouldnt be happening constantly and being adopted by virtually every team in the league... though i dont have any numbers specific to it readily available. 
WE know it nearly killed Calhouns career and has hurt Pujols tremendously so i would think there is little doubt left as angel Fans that it works. 

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Shift stats

https://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits.aspx?playerid=11200&position=OF&season=0&split=12.2

 

Here are his normal 2019 stats.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=11200&position=OF

 

Someone can do a deeper dive than me, but it looks like he has a 2019 OPS vs the shift of .643 and an overall OPS of .766.  So he has been less successful this year vs the shift.  Small sample size, etc.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

Does anyone actually like baseball? A quarter of the threads on this board are just complaints about baseball.

There are things I love and parts I don't. The sum of it all makes me still love baseball.  It's an interesting time right now and analytics seem to be taking over the decisions that are being made on the field and how the game is being played.  When we start talking about shifts, and spin rates, and launch angels, etc. - I get bored.  That's not baseball to me.  I love the stories behind the game.  I love the one on one battle between a batter and a pitcher.  But mostly again - I love the stories.  I love the moments that create memories.  I don't get lost in the numbers or even the trends too much. I pay attention to them - but again, they bore me. I'd rather talk about and learn about a player's journey to big leagues more than how they can beat the shift. 

Baseball is hard.  Sometimes we (well, not necessarily me) think it's easy to just bunt against the shift.  I've read where players say it's not that easy and explain why.  That's not good enough for some.  This board has spent countless hours lamenting about Kole Calhoun and the shift... I get it - it's what people want to focus on and talk about.  When all is said and done - I'm not going to remember those times Kole didn't beat the shift, I'm going to remember those acrobatic catches he made in RF and the times he gunned a guy down trying to take an extra base.  IMO, we don't spend enough time talking about things like that.

I love baseball. We all love it for different reasons.  But that doens't mean we can't complain about some aspects of the game.

Edited by True Grich

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1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

Does anyone actually like baseball? A quarter of the threads on this board are just complaints about baseball.

I have loved the game for 40+ years, but if im being honest i dont like what it is today near as much. 
Dont get me wrong its still better than watching 3 hours of football for 10 minutes of actual gameplay or the mess that is the NBA today, but i enjoy watching it much less than i used to these days. 

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38 minutes ago, True Grich said:

There are things I love and parts I don't. The sum of it all makes me still love baseball.  It's an interesting time right now and analytics seem to be taking over the decisions that are being made on the field and how the game is being played.  When we start talking about shifts, and spin rates, and launch angels, etc. - I get bored.  That's not baseball to me.  I love the stories behind the game.  I love the one on one battle between a batter and a pitcher.  But mostly again - I love the stories.  I love the moments that create memories.  I don't get lost in the numbers or even the trends too much. I pay attention to them - but again, they bore me. I'd rather talk about and learn about a player's journey to big leagues more than how they can beat the shift. 

Baseball is hard.  Sometimes we (well, not necessarily me) think it's easy to just bunt against the shift.  I've read where players say it's not that easy and explain why.  That's not good enough for some.  This board has spent countless hours lamenting about Kole Calhoun and the shift... I get it - it's what people want to focus on and talk about.  When all is said and done - I'm not going to remember those times Kole didn't beat the shift, I'm going to remember those acrobatic catches he made in RF and the times he gunned a guy down trying to take an extra base.  IMO, we don't spend enough time talking about things like that.

I love baseball. We all love it for different reasons.  But that doens't mean we can't complain about some aspects of the game.

So, to sum up what you're saying, baseball is a performance based game?

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